The Dangers Of Concealed Carry Permits
This evening at the K-Mart in St. Clairsville, Oh there was another mall shooting of sorts. Thankfully no one was injured, in fact there wasn’t even a gunman. A 44-year-old man was shopping when his .32-caliber handgun slipped out of his pocket. Upon hitting the floor the gun discharged, firing a single shot into the floor.
The man isn’t an idiot though, he learned his lesson. He told a local newspaper:
“I don’t think I’ll carry a gun anymore. This accident could have been really tragic. … It was a total accident. I forgot it was in my pocket.”
Let’s hope so. I do have to wonder how someone could forget something like a loaded gun being in their pocket though…
The K-Mart store has now posted signs prohibiting firearms.
Read More: Kmart Posts No-Gun Order | The Intelligencer / Wheeling News-Register
December 12th, 2007 at 2:05 am
How often do concealed carry licensees cause accidents like this?
December 12th, 2007 at 8:44 am
how often does a gay man molest a boy scout? (as, say, compared to a Catholic Priest)
how many times have clergy been forced to marry a gay couple?
how many Al Qaeda members were in Iraq prior to invading?
how many “welfare queens” were there really?
how many “partial birth abortions” are ever performed?
how many jobs are really lost to illegal aliens?
how effective is the death penalty?
in the six years of Gitmo operation, how many detainees have been charged with anything?
if you are going to ask yourself questions, ask the real meaningful ones.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:10 am
Unless I’m mistaken, David mentions this accidental discharge in a way that suggests it’s a common occurrence. I’d simply like to know how common it is.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
I think the point to be made here is that it’s already happened once too many.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Are you saying that one accident justifies doing away with the law permitting licensees to carry a concealed firearm? Please tell me that’s not what you’re advocating.
December 12th, 2007 at 9:06 pm
Yes, I guess I am. That one accident could have killed someone. It’s also the only time I can remember hearing about a gun discharging in that mall (or any other malls in the area for that matter). This isn’t a high crime area, the man had no reason to carry a gun.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:23 am
I see. Have you considered that it might be more reasonable to decide this issue based on which option saves the most lives?
December 13th, 2007 at 7:18 am
David,
I read your post and then went to read the whole story. You imply that the man had a carry permit and I wanted to verify that the story said that (it does) rather than guess. There’s nothing in your post that I disagree with.
I also read the comments and that’s where I disagree. How can this one incident cause you to decide against carry permits? Does that mean when a person is killed by a car, we shouldn’t allow people to drive? Of course not, that’s silly.
So how do you decide to allow/disallow carry permits? Hopefully not on a single incident. Recent events in Colorado showed what a single armed person can do when a renegade enters a premise with weapons. The security guard who took down the gunman at the Colorado church saved lives. Yes, it bothers me knowing the person next to me at K-Mart might have a gun, but it bothers me more knowing some lunatic could come in shooting and no one could stop him.
In this case, I believe the man should be charged with something. At a minimum, his gun or the permit should be taken away for a time, he should have additional training or something equal. I think of it as if he were my son, what would I do? I’d make him learn the responsibility. The next time this happens, someone could be hurt or killed. He needs to learn how to properly handle the gun or others (like you) will take away his rights.
December 13th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
I’ve been going to that mall as long as I can remember. In fact I was there last night to return something. In all that time I’ve never even thought it was possible that I might get shot. This accident changed that. While I’m still not worried about getting purposely shot at I’ll constantly be wondering when the next accident will be.
One thing that softened my stance on this a little is that a business can apparently ban guns, as the K-Mart is now doing. While I still think concealed carry permits do more harm than good, this makes it a little easier to deal with.
As for the man, they’ve already said he won’t be charged. After thinking about it I have some serious questions about that. Did the man have the safety on? Shouldn’t it be illegal to carry a gun in a pocket rather than a proper holster? I’m sure this was an accident, but I think you’re right about training classes or revoking his permit.
December 13th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
David, you said:
Can you elaborate a bit? I’d like to understand what leads you to think that concealed carry permits do more harm than good. For starters, how do you quantify that claim?
December 13th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
I can’t think of an instance in my area where a concealed weapon has helped anyone and obviously there’s a case were it could have hurt. I also think having a weapon increases the risk of violence if a person were to become upset or agitated.
It also strike me as a tad bit ridiculous that people can’t take bottled water on a plane but we can take handguns to the mall.
December 14th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
That’s quite a local perspective to use when evaluating an issue that affects the whole state, don’t you think? Would you agree that if the advent of concealed carry licenses resulted in a higher number of violent crimes prevented/foiled than the number of new firearm accidents caused, then it would be worth re-evaluating your position?
Oh … I agree with you that the TSA regulations are silly, to put it mildly.
December 15th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
Well what do you think should happen to this man for not being safe? Would you agree that concealed weapons should be required to be carried in a holster rather than a pocket?
This accident could have killed someone but everyone seems to just be shrugging this off by saying “well, he had a concealed carry permit”. If these permits are used as an excuse for accidents such as these than I don’t think their worth keeping.
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Several things you should consider before making any final decision about concealed carry permits.
The first is that the ’security guard’ in Colorado was not a security guard. It was someone with a concealed carry permit who was at the church. For some reason it got reported as a security guard. But that was not true.
Read this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226493636/davekopel-20/
by Professor John Lott, Jr. of Yale Law School
Quote from above:
“For those states from which data are available before and after the passage of such [nondiscretionary concealed handgun] laws, the mean per-capita death rate from mass shootings in those states plummets by 69 percent.”
From http://www.davidkopel.com/2A/OpEds/ConcealedCarryNow.htm Quoting Professor Lot:
Lott writes that if counties now without “shall-issue” concealed carry requirements “had been subject to state concealed-handgun laws and had thus been forced to issue handgun permits, murders in the United States would have declined by about 1,400… the number of rapes in states without nondiscretionary laws would have declined by 4,200, aggravated assaults by 60,000, and robberies by 12,000.”
Guns can be handled safely. And there are safe guns that will not go off by accident. It’s up to the gun owner to make sure it’s safe.
As far as your fears are concerned your chances of dieing in a car accident going to the mall are thousands if not millions of times higher than getting shot accidentally by someone who has a concealed carry permit. Should we also ban cars since they cause more deaths than anything else in the United States?
Guns are a lot like terrorists actions. The chance if you getting shot is extermly low in most areas and having law abiding citizens carrying them actually reduces your chances of gettign shot, but we are emotional creatures who fear what we do not understand.
What would your stance be if instead of being present at a misfire you were saved by a person with a concealed carry permit just before a gang member shot you in the head? Or shot your child in the head? Would you be thanking him or her?
This is not to say that concealed carry owners should not be held accountable for their actions. They should be trained. They should be required to refresh their training. They should be responsible and those who aren’t should be dealt with. But fear is not a way to deal with guns in general. You shouldn’t be afraid of guns, you should be afraid of the type of person who would use a gun, or anything else to hurt someone.
When seconds count the police are minutes away.
Weapons are banned in prision but they still exist as does murder.
Countries who have banned guns altogether still have criminals with guns.
Sorry.. I’m on a bit of a soap box but I have lived around guns my whole life and never seen anyone shot accidentally. But then I was always taught to respect them.
January 3rd, 2008 at 8:55 am
Just a few points.
1. This was not an accidental discharge. This was a negligent discharge. This gentleman should be charged with reckless endangerment, or your state’s equivalent charge. He should be prosecuted. If someone had died, I’m sure he would have been charged with either involuntary manslaughter or reckless homicide.
2. If he had a carry permit, he should have known better. I hope he never carries again. He has shown himself to be irresponsible. However, unless charged and convicted, he has every right to carry. You don’t lose rights for just being an idiot or there would be millions of us walking around with duct tape on our mouths.
3. David, please thoughtfully consider The Puddle Pirate’s very civil and very logical arguments. By your stated arguments above, if one person had a fatal reaction to a medicine, it should be removed from the market. That would mean no antibiotics or almost any other prescription medicine. While I can understand the emotional aspect of what you say, it just doesn’t make sense to force your view on everyone. I’m sure there were many people who shopped at the Von Maur store in the Westroads Mall, Virginia Tech, Coloumbine, etc. (gun free zones all) who had the same “it could never happen here, to me” attitude. Please reconsider. Bad things most often happen to people who don’t think they will be affected by bad things. Criminals and crazies don’t respect gun free zones. They think of them as target-rich environs.
4. Puddle Pirate, thank you for your informed, patient, and civil comments on this post.
June 15th, 2008 at 12:39 am
It is quite obvious the man had very little training in carrying a firearm and even less common sense. 99% of people carrying concealed weapons have had training in safety and proper safety precautions. Someone dropping a weaqpon and having an accidental discharge should not be allowed to have a permit and should be required to take a course in gun safety aqnd proper carry techiniques.
August 8th, 2008 at 12:24 am
I am a concealed carry instructor in ohio. This person does not represent the thousands of people that have a concealed carry permit. All guns should be carried in a holster, and there are holsters manufactured to carry a gun in the pocket. I always advocate carring a gun in a holster. Not only for the safety of others but to prevent serious injury to the carrier. A gun is only dangerous if handled carelessly.